CHATROOM

There’s No Stock Market Crash Yet aka My Take On Capitulation

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So everyone and their mother…hint, hint LiveStock today from 1pm til who knows when, gotta cover this potentially awesome day today in all its glory…wants to know where the bottom is…and the word you must learn to recognize is C A P I T U L A T I O N.

You know I don’t believe in market guessing games–I don’t think anyone who reads or doesn’t read this blog is smart/rich enough to be able accurately quantify all the moving parts–nor buying falling knives, but I do know a little something about traders and investors psychology and capitulation is all about psychology.

Imagine for a second you’ve been a dip buyer–probly a sissy value investor/wannabe Warren Buffett “buy into fear” aka I fear how many morons out there think they’re wise/experienced/mature/disciplined enough to be part of the 10% of traders who make money instead of failing, losing $ and becoming part of the problem, not the answer–at Dow 11k, 10k, 9500, 9200, 9000, 8800…You’re down big, bigger every few hours/days and you can’t understand why the market is not bottoming like the experts/gurus/bloggers/talking heads/reason tells you it should?!?!? You keep adding to average down your cost basis so there’s still a chance you can make it back…

And there’s a ton of people doing that right now…the problem is they haven’t capitulated nor do I think they’re even close to. They haven’t thrown up their arms and sold their dip-buying-positions because they still think there’s hope.

The damn media and talking heads who say recovery in 2009 have got everybody all excited about hope and they’re responsible for making people dumber…and now poorer.

In individual stocks, falling knife chart patterns USUALLY last a longer than people expect and there’s rarely any quick rebound, if any rebound at all, but when we’re talking an entire index/market, you gotta give up on individual investor/trader psychology and focus on big issues–like the fact that the S&P 500 hit a near perfect double top from 2000, essentially meaning we ain’t breaking through 1600 anytime in the next decade. Meaning limited upside.

More importantly, the steepness of the decline mirrors the bottom in 2002, but we forget that 2002 was after big drops in 2000 and 2001, meaning all those dip buyers–yes, they were around back then too–were finally giving up…right now the dip buyers are just starting so I’d be surprised if they gave up anytime in the next few months as we’ve really only had 1 year of downside…typically, we need another 1-2 before we get any true panic. Meaning plenty of downside.

And of course, you’ve got all these messy credit swaps, derivatives and who knows what else that nobody understands well all we know is financial companies are now leveraged 20-1 down from 40-1 and it’s all coming apart.

In short, who the hell knows where the bottom is, the downside pattern is just beginning, at least historically…we might get a snapback rally, but everyone is expecting a snapback rally, which makes a snapback rally less likely which means we could/should get a serious panic that discards all historical norms and teaches everyone that technical analysis is an inexact science, especially when combined with non-transparent over-leveraged carcasses of companies.

Posted in Breakdowns, Financial Media Circus, Patience, Patterns To Avoid

  • http://thebeagleboy.blogspot.com/ lencurrie

    Interesting take.. especially the last paragraph.. “.. everyone is expecting a snapback rally”.. to be truthful.. I am one of those.. and likely in the 90% of investors whom don’t know what the fawk they are doing but think they do… Trying to time this market for a rally is ridiculous, when 90% of the days are red, why are you trying to catch the 10% that are green? Most ‘analaysts’ are saying that when it does snapback.. buyers will step in, and that may definitely be the case.. but why not try to make the money today shorting, instead of waiting (and losing) money trying to time the rally back?

    Great insight Tim.

  • http://thebeagleboy.blogspot.com/ lencurrie

    Interesting take.. especially the last paragraph.. “.. everyone is expecting a snapback rally”.. to be truthful.. I am one of those.. and likely in the 90% of investors whom don’t know what the fawk they are doing but think they do… Trying to time this market for a rally is ridiculous, when 90% of the days are red, why are you trying to catch the 10% that are green? Most ‘analaysts’ are saying that when it does snapback.. buyers will step in, and that may definitely be the case.. but why not try to make the money today shorting, instead of waiting (and losing) money trying to time the rally back?

    Great insight Tim.

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    correct, people dip buying at dow 9500, 9000, 8800 are the ones who will ultimately sell at 8000, enabling a potential crash to 7500 7000….i love this cuz i know i’ll be one of the survivors and i’m selling DVDs to teach people to think like me!

    http://www.test.timothysykes.com/store

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    correct, people dip buying at dow 9500, 9000, 8800 are the ones who will ultimately sell at 8000, enabling a potential crash to 7500 7000….i love this cuz i know i’ll be one of the survivors and i’m selling DVDs to teach people to think like me!

    http://www.test.timothysykes.com/store

  • leo00o83

    Timing a market that obliterates historical trends or odds based on historical chart patterns and indicators is not a good idea if you’re expecting you’ll get a rally that is similar to the ones we got already because if the nature of the downside is a totally new animal, so will the nature of the rally.

    The only things that DO still work are intraday support/resistance levels. support becomes resistance, resistance becomes support, weak volume breakouts are more likely to fail than succeed, etc. that’s it.

    But all this could be obliterated on a big news event, especially one that would create scary spikes that don’t follow any kind of support/resistance level.

    So even day trading this market is extremely risky.

  • leo00o83

    Timing a market that obliterates historical trends or odds based on historical chart patterns and indicators is not a good idea if you’re expecting you’ll get a rally that is similar to the ones we got already because if the nature of the downside is a totally new animal, so will the nature of the rally.

    The only things that DO still work are intraday support/resistance levels. support becomes resistance, resistance becomes support, weak volume breakouts are more likely to fail than succeed, etc. that’s it.

    But all this could be obliterated on a big news event, especially one that would create scary spikes that don’t follow any kind of support/resistance level.

    So even day trading this market is extremely risky.

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    yes leo, isn’t it wonderful!

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    yes leo, isn’t it wonderful!

  • http://www.colinklinkert.com Colin Klinkert

    Well I do have shares in the market, in things like MBIA – I know silly boy, and am down 35% and many many thousands, but have not sold out and dont think i will, ill just hold and see what happens.

    Im in a position where I can lose my entire portfolio, it would suck but its not a massive deal for me as im mainly sitting in cash right now, I feel very sorry for all those around retirement age though that have seen their life savings CRASH in the space of a couple months

  • http://www.colinklinkert.com Colin Klinkert

    Well I do have shares in the market, in things like MBIA – I know silly boy, and am down 35% and many many thousands, but have not sold out and dont think i will, ill just hold and see what happens.

    Im in a position where I can lose my entire portfolio, it would suck but its not a massive deal for me as im mainly sitting in cash right now, I feel very sorry for all those around retirement age though that have seen their life savings CRASH in the space of a couple months

  • cash

    Thanks for the insight Tim one of your best blog posts.

  • cash

    Thanks for the insight Tim one of your best blog posts.

  • A

    Yeah, Tim, been following your blog for 9 months now. Definitely one of ur best posts. Keep up the good work man.

  • A

    Yeah, Tim, been following your blog for 9 months now. Definitely one of ur best posts. Keep up the good work man.

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    thanks guys, nice rebound this morning, TIMalert subscribers know i just picked another winner for 10% gain this morning http://www.timalerts.com

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    thanks guys, nice rebound this morning, TIMalert subscribers know i just picked another winner for 10% gain this morning http://www.timalerts.com

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/10/lets-get-some-true-panic-in-time-for-livestock-today-1pm-til-whenever/ Let’s Get Some True Panic In Time For LiveStock Today 1PM Til Whenever! | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] For more on what I think needs to happen before the ultimate bottom, check out this new blog post that’s all about capitulation. [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/10/lets-get-some-true-panic-in-time-for-livestock-today-1pm-til-whenever/ Let’s Get Some True Panic In Time For LiveStock Today 1PM Til Whenever! | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] For more on what I think needs to happen before the ultimate bottom, check out this new blog post that’s all about capitulation. [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes
  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes
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  • Cadel

    If all those bitter investors are losing money, who are the people making those tons of billions being swiped away from the markets??????

  • Cadel

    If all those bitter investors are losing money, who are the people making those tons of billions being swiped away from the markets??????

  • http://wow.com wow

    wowzers, so this is where all the idiots come to listen to a stupid prick who got lucky once and now likes to talk down the market cause he needs to cover his shorts?

    market going down, we are at 1987 immediate post drop, bottomed out and from here its up like crazy especially the financial sector starting monday
    but keep shorting fools
    hahahahahah

  • http://wow.com wow

    wowzers, so this is where all the idiots come to listen to a stupid prick who got lucky once and now likes to talk down the market cause he needs to cover his shorts?

    market going down, we are at 1987 immediate post drop, bottomed out and from here its up like crazy especially the financial sector starting monday
    but keep shorting fools
    hahahahahah

  • sissy value inv

    “dip buyer–probly a sissy value investor/wannabe”‘

    uhh, haven’t you been buying strong “value” off the bounce. You took into consideration ISRG’s fundi’s when you bought. Not all value investors buy and hold without taking profits.

  • sissy value inv

    “dip buyer–probly a sissy value investor/wannabe”‘

    uhh, haven’t you been buying strong “value” off the bounce. You took into consideration ISRG’s fundi’s when you bought. Not all value investors buy and hold without taking profits.

  • http://www.stockpursuit.com sissy value inv

    yes, yes, I agree. atleast 2 more years unless the gov messes it up and we recover just to get setup for a HUGE crash in a decade. We need some real panic this is a wimpy crash, we need 10-12% in a day or we crash again IMO.

  • http://www.stockpursuit.com sissy value inv

    yes, yes, I agree. atleast 2 more years unless the gov messes it up and we recover just to get setup for a HUGE crash in a decade. We need some real panic this is a wimpy crash, we need 10-12% in a day or we crash again IMO.

  • Getshorty

    Hey wow, nobody is upposed to be short here, people who listen Tim shoud be ALL CASH. Don’t have a clue what or who you are laughing about.

  • Getshorty

    Hey wow, nobody is upposed to be short here, people who listen Tim shoud be ALL CASH. Don’t have a clue what or who you are laughing about.

  • http://www.myspace.com/koudirka pumacom

    Made 13% trading Dow Ultralong ETF today… looking at all the index ultralongs next week for potential bounce. VIX is way too high not to get a decent bounce… just make sure not to chase, and buy when everyone else is panicking.

  • http://www.myspace.com/koudirka pumacom

    Made 13% trading Dow Ultralong ETF today… looking at all the index ultralongs next week for potential bounce. VIX is way too high not to get a decent bounce… just make sure not to chase, and buy when everyone else is panicking.

  • Getshorty

    Congrats Puma, which are some good ultralongs?

  • Getshorty

    Congrats Puma, which are some good ultralongs?

  • Incantoto

    You just talked your people out of the greatest rally in 20 years

  • Incantoto

    You just talked your people out of the greatest rally in 20 years

  • Adam

    Nice work on shorting today! Keep shorting and see what happens.

  • Adam

    Nice work on shorting today! Keep shorting and see what happens.

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    lncanto, i could care less about market crashes/bounces, just take it one pump at a time…thats why my people are sad only up 100%+ on the year so far!

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    lncanto, i could care less about market crashes/bounces, just take it one pump at a time…thats why my people are sad only up 100%+ on the year so far!

  • BurstYourBubble

    Poor Incantoto…He talked himself out of getting the inside scoop on how to trade. He will wait around for another 20-60 years to get a bounce like the one he probably missed as well.

    Oh well…In-Can-toto… In Can is another way to say “in butt”…toto is Doroty’s dog. Dorothy’s dog is in his butt?

    I don’t know.

  • BurstYourBubble

    Poor Incantoto…He talked himself out of getting the inside scoop on how to trade. He will wait around for another 20-60 years to get a bounce like the one he probably missed as well.

    Oh well…In-Can-toto… In Can is another way to say “in butt”…toto is Doroty’s dog. Dorothy’s dog is in his butt?

    I don’t know.

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    what bounce? we had one big gap up–which anyone watching livestock was not short for, but long–and then an afternoon rally…other than that we go down, down down

  • http://test.timothysykes.com Timothy Sykes

    what bounce? we had one big gap up–which anyone watching livestock was not short for, but long–and then an afternoon rally…other than that we go down, down down

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/16/thats-the-bounce-aka-die-all-you-fen-longs-die/ That’s The Bounce?!?!?! aka Die All You F%^&en Longs, Die! | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] response to my post about the lack of capitulation in the markets and after not trading into the bounce the other day, some people were saying stuff [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/16/thats-the-bounce-aka-die-all-you-fen-longs-die/ That’s The Bounce?!?!?! aka Die All You F%^&en Longs, Die! | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] response to my post about the lack of capitulation in the markets and after not trading into the bounce the other day, some people were saying stuff [...]

  • Andrew

    Thanks for the education.

  • Andrew

    Thanks for the education.

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/22/what-to-do-when-the-markets-got-you-down-dream-about-fun-new-ecoupled-technology/ What To Do When The Market’s Got You Down: Dream About Fun New eCoupled Technology | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] us stocked up on the recently-ridiculously strong US dollar and who are ready and waiting for any signs of true capitulation (none of these little bounces that only amateurs fall [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/22/what-to-do-when-the-markets-got-you-down-dream-about-fun-new-ecoupled-technology/ What To Do When The Market’s Got You Down: Dream About Fun New eCoupled Technology | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] us stocked up on the recently-ridiculously strong US dollar and who are ready and waiting for any signs of true capitulation (none of these little bounces that only amateurs fall [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/24/livestock-today-special-market-crash-edition-i-told-there-wasnt-any-crash...yet/ LiveStock Today & Special Market Crash Edition, I Told there Wasn’t Any Crash…Yet! | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] the markets bounced 9% in 1 day, a few people mocked me when I wrote this post the other day on capitulation, saying there was no market crash…yet…saying I’d talked my subscribers out of the greatest rebound in [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/10/24/livestock-today-special-market-crash-edition-i-told-there-wasnt-any-crash...yet/ LiveStock Today & Special Market Crash Edition, I Told there Wasn’t Any Crash…Yet! | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] the markets bounced 9% in 1 day, a few people mocked me when I wrote this post the other day on capitulation, saying there was no market crash…yet…saying I’d talked my subscribers out of the greatest rebound in [...]

  • mcbowler

    Hahaha.. I KNEW you were right anyway.. everyone in my office talking about moving their 401ks AFTER the first crash. I told everyone in my office, the word of the day is capitulation!

  • mcbowler

    Hahaha.. I KNEW you were right anyway.. everyone in my office talking about moving their 401ks AFTER the first crash. I told everyone in my office, the word of the day is capitulation!

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/11/13/great-time-to-buy-stocks-david-herro-vs.-george-soros-who-do-you-think-wins/ Great Time To Buy Stocks? David Herro vs. George Soros, Who Do You Think Wins? | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] of it and not let my bias get in the way of this great fight…I’ll only say when I wrote this post on October 10th about how there’s been no capitulation yet and received many many emails from people who said “I talked my subscribers out the greatest [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/2008/11/13/great-time-to-buy-stocks-david-herro-vs.-george-soros-who-do-you-think-wins/ Great Time To Buy Stocks? David Herro vs. George Soros, Who Do You Think Wins? | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] of it and not let my bias get in the way of this great fight…I’ll only say when I wrote this post on October 10th about how there’s been no capitulation yet and received many many emails from people who said “I talked my subscribers out the greatest [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/blog/2009/02/19/sometimes-all-the-market-negativity-is-deserved/ Sometimes All The Market Negativity Is Deserved | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] all this talk of people being “overly negative”, I can’t help but chime in….just as I did back in October last year when I correctly said there was no bottom yet because there was no [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/blog/2009/02/19/sometimes-all-the-market-negativity-is-deserved/ Sometimes All The Market Negativity Is Deserved | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] all this talk of people being “overly negative”, I can’t help but chime in….just as I did back in October last year when I correctly said there was no bottom yet because there was no [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/blog/2009/03/03/11-hot-penny-stocks-some-for-short-selling-some-just-to-spit-at-more-timalert-subscriber-testimonials/ 11 Hot Penny Stocks, Some For Short Selling, Some Just To Spit At & More TIMalert Subscriber Testimonials | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] Just gotta focus on small gains and understand that the fact that we’re going down a bit more each day means we’re getting closer to all important capitulation… [...]

  • http://test.timothysykes.com/blog/2009/03/03/11-hot-penny-stocks-some-for-short-selling-some-just-to-spit-at-more-timalert-subscriber-testimonials/ 11 Hot Penny Stocks, Some For Short Selling, Some Just To Spit At & More TIMalert Subscriber Testimonials | TIM – Timothy Sykes

    [...] Just gotta focus on small gains and understand that the fact that we’re going down a bit more each day means we’re getting closer to all important capitulation… [...]

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