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The Importance Of Getting The Odds On Your Side And Not Being Overly Boring

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I love ripping on value investors. You might say it’s a hobby of mine. Not because I don’t think their strategy is valid—I think all strategies are valid—but because out of everyone in the finance industry, and I do mean everyone, these people are the most boring. And, it’s fun to get boring people agitated and see them struggle to remain their boring selves. Oh yeah, and they’re snobby, too. And stuffy. (Read my post where I pick a fight by calling them little sissy girls, which they are)

Due to the subject matter, finance is already boring and stuffy enough, we don’t need anymore of that crap. But these characters just can’t change—they believe what they believe—all other strategies are infidels—and so they are partly, if not mostly, to blame for the general lack of interest in finance by society as a whole.

Well, there’s hope for at least one of these mutants, Vitaliy Katsenelson. Even though he forgot to Ellis Island his name when he got here, he’s written a classically boring but unusually exceptional strategy book in Active Value Investing. Judging from the excerpt that he’s allowed me to repost here, he even sounds as if he’s got a little trader in him! It’s a great post and it echoes a difficult lesson I’m constantly trying to teach—no matter the end result of a trade/investment, if you enter with the odds/variables on your side, you’re bound to succeed eventually. If you partake in random/gut trading/investing, it doesn’t matter if you make money or not, you’ve already killed your chances for long-term success, you might as well just go to a casino and get free drinks. Read on and brand this on your little brains:

“Any time you make a bet with the best of it, where the odds are in your favor, you have earned something on that bet, whether you actually win or lose the bet. By the same token, when you make a bet with the worst of it, where the odds are not in your favor, you have lost something, whether you actually win or lose the bet.” – David Sklansky, ‘The Theory of Poker’

Over a lifetime, active investors will make hundreds, often thousands of investment decisions. Not all of those decisions will work out for the better. Some will lose and some will make us money. As humans we tend to focus on the outcome of the decision rather than on the process.

On a behavioral level, this makes sense. The outcome is binary to us – good or bad, we can observe with ease. But the process is more complex and is often hidden from us.

One of two things (sometimes a bit of both) can unite great investors: process and randomness (luck). Unfortunately, there is not much we can learn from randomness, as it has no predictive power. But the process we should study and learn from. To be a successful investor, all you need is a successful process and the ability (or mental strength) to stick to it.

Several years ago, I was on a business trip. I had some time to kill so I went to a casino to play blackjack. Aware that the odds were stacked against me, I set a $40 limit on how much I was willing to lose in the game. I figured a couple hours of entertainment, plus the free drinks provided by the casino, were worth it. I was never a big gambler (as I never won much). However, several days before the trip I had picked up a book on blackjack on the deep discount rack in a local bookstore. All the dos and don’ts from the book were still fresh in my head. I figured if I played my cards right I would minimize the house advantage from 2-3 per cent to 0.5 per cent.

Wanting to get as much mileage out of my $40 as possible, I found a table with the smallest minimum bet requirement. My thinking was that the smaller the hands I played, the more time it would take for the casino’s advantage to catch up with me and take my money.

I joined a table that was dominated by a rowdy, half-drunken blue-collar worker who told me several times that it was his payday (literally: he was holding a stack of $100 bills in his hand) and that he was winning. I played by the book. But it did not matter. Luck was not on my side and my $40 was thinning with every hand.

Meanwhile, the rowdy guy was making every wrong move. He would ask for an extra card when he had a hard 18 while the dealer showed 6. The next card he drew would be a 3, giving him 21. Then the dealer would get a 10 and then a 2 (on top of the 6 that already showed), leaving him with 18. The rowdy guy barely paid attention to the cards. He was more interested in saying “hit me”.

Every “right” decision I made turned into a losing bet, while every “wrong” decision he made turned into a winner. His stack of chips was growing while mine was dwindling. His loud behaviour and consistent winnings attracted several observers. Some were making comments such as: “This guy is good.” Nobody paid attention to me – I was not loud and I was losing.

The rowdy guy had no process in place. He was just making half-drunken bets that had statistical improbabilities of success. And he was winning, at least for a while. I was armed with statistics, making every bet to maximize my chances of winning (actually, to minimize my losses – the odds were still against me) but I was on the losing side of the game.

After a couple of hours, and of consuming more of the “free” alcohol, my rowdy companion was increasing the size of his bets with every successful hand. The law of large numbers caught up with him. He gave up his winnings and his pay cheque as well – two weeks of hard work rightly went into the casino’s coffers.

I was down to a couple of dollars at one point. But then my luck changed and I won the bulk of my money back. In the end I lost only $10. This was a successful deal. I’d had a couple beers, spent a couple of hours gambling and learned a valuable gambling/investing lesson about the value of the process.

What is the lesson? Spend more time focusing on the process than on the end results. If it was not for randomness, every decision we made would be right or wrong based solely on the outcome. If that were the case, the process could be judged solely on the end result.
But randomness is constantly present in investing (as it is in gambling). Though we are drawn to judge our own decisions, and those of others, on their outcomes, that is dangerous. Randomness may teach us the wrong lessons.

Vitaliy Katsenelson write the blog Contrarian Edge and is a portfolio manager at Investment Management Associates and teaches at the University of Colorado in Denver

Posted in Guest Posts, Value Investors

  • NeilTheRealDeal

    Tim,

    Very nice post. Psychologically it’s hard for us as humans to respond to the process rather than the outcome. Like the outcome bias in Curtis Faith’s book, “The Way of the Turtle”:

    Outcome bias: The tendency to judge a decision by its outcome rather than by the quality of the decision at the time it was made.

    Granted I’ve only been to a casino 4 times, I have not lost money in BlackJack yet. I go in with $50 bucks and leave with $100 everytime. I use guerrilla tactics (one of the easiest ways to get caught) where I count the cards while I’m not playing and then step in when the cards are in my favor. Love the post.

    Did you get the reply email about the website? Have your web designer take another look at that article.

  • http://simplygustavo.blogspot.com Gustavo

    Tim, I think you are completley wrong by calling value investor sissies, wussies or what not. You mentioned in an earlier post about how you want your trading to be taken seriously and considered by value investor however you are ultimatley wrong in your approach. I prefer value investing. It seems easier and safer and can work less hours a week than you do by limiting myself to 10 stocks. However, I do not come to this conclusion blindly, I have in fact read about trading, investing, and everything in between. And “value” investing seems like the most comfortable and most succesful approach. If you really want to be taken seriously be a man and don’t attack value investors. Simply say you prefer trading because it is more exciting and is leads to scores of adrenaline rushes. I prefer to party or do something else other than look for an opportuity among your preliminary 30 stocks.

  • timsykes

    Sure, value investing is much easier, and if you want to take the easy way out, by all means do it, but you’re not gonna learn much about yourself or have the opportunity to build any character. trading teaches you more about the world than you ever thought possible. i have no “preliminary stocks” right now, i just watch a lot of stocks, none of which are worth my time right now.

    and i don’t mind boring strategies, i love those, i just don’t like boring people!

  • timsykes

    LOL, I lost money when I tried investing! If I stick to my trusty charts, I’m always safe. Only risk is getting halted or news. Tell me this, how long would it take to turn $12k into $2 million using value investing? Exactly, you’d be as old as Buffett. If you’re lucky.

    The truth is trading is IDEAL for smaller investors looking to become wealthy.

  • timsykes

    PS 9/10 traders do lose money, but then again, most investors fail to beat the indexes so neither strategy is perfect. Best hope is to learn to be one of those 1/10 traders who do make money because even if you beat the average as a value investors, your upside is severely limited.

    And 30% drawdowns, while difficult, should not be considered failure. they’re actually great for your mindset!

  • George Johnson

    Hi Tim. Saw you on CBS this morning. I didn’t know you were jewish. Mazaltoff! I guess I should take up the card game “Bridge” according to the news story if I want to be as wealthy as Gates and Buffet. LOL What would I do with $50 billion anyway?!
    Anyhow, I guess life itself is a risk. You can either play it safe and not participate or jump in with both feet (lose some and win some and try to learn from your mistakes). It’s more fun to take risks and play the game anyhow and the saying is true…all work and no play, makes Jack a dull boy. The guys and gals you speak of are probably indeed boring because they never play, nor do they know how to play or wish to play. That makes them dull.
    Jumping in to life with both feet (win or lose) makes you a player and makes you alive on the inside. I’d rather be alive inside than dead anyday (win or lose). Hope you know what I’m talking about. Keep trading and advancing! Shalom!

    George

  • Merwan

    Hi Tim,
    Read your book and really enjoyed it as well as the website. Great job! I’m wondering how you feel about using options in your investing or whether you use them at all?

  • timsykes

    Thanks! I’ve never traded an option before, I probly should learn, but the vast majority of stocks I trade aren’t optionable, although their prices move like options and have much better spreads

  • be-the-ball

    tim,

    excellent post. i fear that most of your readers will skip it because you are not discussing the latest POS stock to go long or short…but this post, if taken to heart, will make you more money than any one stock pick ever could. And you did it all without any cuss words…very nice indeed. ;-)

  • http://www.investorgeeks.com/articles/2008/02/18/is-value-investing-for-chumps-or-wussies/ Is Value Investing for Chumps or Wussies? on InvestorGeeks

    [...] Sykes has this habit of making fun of value investors (2). So, value investors, listen up; you

  • http://www.inmoneytoday.com/2008/03/03/buffett-letter-offers-great-lessons-for-investors/ Buffett letter offers great lessons for investors | money blog

    [...] you can tell from this post on my blog, I am no fan of value investing. While I believe investors, especially smaller [...]

  • http://www.devspace.com/~christianhgross/?p=559 BloggerJacks » Is Value Investing for Chumps or Wussies?

    [...] Sykes has this habit of making fun of value investors (2). So, value investors, listen up; you

  • tbohen

    I agree I was way to early on SUF.

    In my trading journal I have.

    WAIT FOR RED, DON’T RUSH THE TRADE, ESPECIALLY MID MORNING!!! Scrawled in caps with a bunch of exclamation points.

    I’ll chalk that one up to more luck then skill.

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    good tbohen, learn from your gains :)

  • wavything

    zn…WOW!! did you check out their website? HOLY CRAP!! That’s heavy. It’d almost make me feel dirty shorting it…but I just got off another 12 hour shift, so I’m dirty anyway…let’s see if it goes red today, eh?

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    SUF down more,,,, reaper the pattern still works!

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    wavything, u a canuck, eh?

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    ZN up niiiice, welcome to why these are potential buys before shyorts

  • Reaper

    +$214 in SUF today, % gain was better than % loss yesterday but could only get 1/3 the position size due to lack of liquidity.

  • wavything

    I’m in long @ 16.40…nope, not a canuck. I am a bit annoyed ’bout people using religion to manipulate folks outta their money. ZN burns my backside! I’ll try to keep the “eh?’s” to a minimum, eh?

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    nice reaper, HRZ also proving why its good to buy an earnings turnaround stock on dips…GRMN might actually fit that bill too!

  • matthewcox01

    No ZN shares available for short at IB.

  • http://leanonlean.blogspot.com JeffMoates

    Tim, what about RMBS? Looks like they just won a court case, but they’re still broke, nice stair step to a bounce.

  • http://leanonlean.blogspot.com JeffMoates

    RMBS fading?

  • YoungGunz

    They’ll just find someone else to sue here soon to get more money…They like to do that kind of stuff.

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    KPPC is nice, 100% intradya pop, risky to short on the 1st up day though…

  • tbohen

    ANDS cracked through $7, $6.94 right now.

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    ands is a potential short, wait til afternoon though, just as ARNA is a potential buy

  • tbohen

    yeah I got my beady eyes on it but being patient.

  • tbohen

    Fuck RMBS that stock is completely random in my opinion, the volatility is nice but who knows where its going, kind of like DRYS, you can get $2 moves but I can find no pattern…

  • http://www.test.timothysykes.com timothysykes

    dan i forgot about IAG, look at that tank!

  • tbohen

    CAB breaking down?

  • YoungGunz

    haha still messing with the PSPM fucks.

  • tbohen

    You need to apply that energy to your trading YG!! ;)

  • http://leanonlean.blogspot.com JeffMoates

    in ARNA at 5.11

  • http://leanonlean.blogspot.com JeffMoates

    2000 shares